
This is an article I’ve wanted to write for a long time. I considered the subject to obscure until my special lady friend assured me that it was not. If you’ve ever been within 50 miles of a college campus you probably know who the International Socialist Organization are. They’re the obviously middle-class kids shilling a banal newspaper in really large type font who curl into a ball and start crying if you ask them a question harder than “but is socialism really possible / aren’t people naturally selfish / didn’t socialism fail in the Soviet Union?” If the ISO weren’t running around claiming to be socialists, I can honestly say that I wouldn’t have any problem with them. If they just fessed up to the fact that they’re garden variety radical liberals who want good people to do good things in the world, I wouldn’t have the same level of hate for them. It’s their insistence that they represent some kind of political and theoretical continuity with hard as nails American socialists (or at least the popular ones everyone already knows about) and the first people to successfully overthrow capitalism that makes me rage at an almost uncontrollable level.
The History of an Anti-Communist Sect
I’m not the type of socialist who runs around ranting about being a communist, insisting on red banners, hammers and sickles, and bizarre, pseudo-religious pictures of Lenin and Trotsky everywhere. But you will not find a group on the left more neurotically fearful of the term “communist” than the International Socialist Organization. To find out why this is, and to assess the generally populist, conservative (in the general sense, not the political sense) bent of their politics and rhetoric, one must go way back to the late-40s and the Korean War.

It was in the late 1940s, during what was arguably the greatest period of reaction and anti-communist fervor that Tony Cliff happened upon a convenient theory entirely new to the Trotskyist movement of which he was at that time a part. The Soviet Union and its buffer states were not, as Trotsky and his followers maintained, degenerated and deformed workers’ state, respectively. They represented new class relations, namely a new form of capitalism which Cliff called state capitalism.
Cliff’s claim was not new. It had previously shown up in a slightly different form called bureaucratic collectivism, which Trotsky spent the last year or so of his life fighting tooth and nail. Cliff’s theory ignores a number of key differences between the Soviet Union and every other capitalist state. For example, there was no market in the Soviet Union, the means of production were owned collectively, workers had a right to a job and health care, and there was a monopoly on foreign trade. Further, “Soviet Imperialism” does not resemble Imperialism as Lenin defined it an any way whatsoever. The Soviet Union certainly took over other countries with its armies, but in a highly reluctant fashion. They also did not export finance capital to these countries, rather they literally loaded what little productive capital was left onto trains and took it back to the Soviet Union. Finally, the Soviet Union did something that no capitalist country has done since the days of Napoleon- it (again, very reluctantly, and for their own interests) allowed workers to carry out tightly controlled, highly bureaucratized social revolutions which ended capitalism.

But if you need any proof that capitalism was abolished, just ask people in the former Warsaw Pact countries how life has been for them since the fall of the workers’ states there. Quick answer: not so fuckin’ good.
Facts rarely seem to matter to ISO members. The emotional reaction of their petty-bourgeois upbringing counts for much more. For example, they have no response to the fact that Trotsky supported the invasion of Poland by the Soviet Union because it would bring the socially progressive property forms of the Russian Revolution to Poland. They have nothing to say when you confront them with the fact that their ideological forebearers became rabid anti-communists while the faction supporting so-called “Orthodox Trotskyism” died socialists. This is trivia to the ISO, as is the fairly obvious historical connection between anti-communist witch hunting and their founder’s “discovery” of an awesome new theory which absolved them of their responsibility to defend the Soviet Union against imperialist attack and allowed them to condemn Soviet armies fighting American imperialism in Korea as “Soviet Imperialism.”
Yeah. All that shit is totally irrelevant, dudes. All that matters is that the Soviet bureaucracy were bad men who did bad things. Anyone who defended the Soviet Union was like, totally some kind of crypto-Stalinist, brah. (Which, by the way, makes Trotsky the biggest crypto-Stalinist of all.)
Incidentally, none of this is theoretical. It’s literally impossible to explain the events of the last 20 years using the state capitalist model.

Modern Day Reformism
I’m going to spare the ISO a further exploration of their history which includes glowing support for the Ayatollah Khomeini, British troops in Northern Ireland, the Mujahideen, and prison guard unions, among other things. I’m more interested in concentrating on their very real and very gross reformism in the here and now. Again- I am not writing an article called “Why I Hate DSA” because the Democratic Socialists of America don’t go around masquerading as revolutionaries, confusing militant workers and radical youth. All the ISO has to do to end my wrath is stop calling themselves something they are not. They are not “international”- they are a group which exists only in the United States, having split with their co-thinkers over not kissing radical Islamist ass enough… or too much. I’m not really sure. Maybe one of their members can help us out. Nor are they “socialists” in any sense that doesn’t torture language. If they change their name to “American Student Liberals” or something more fitting, I’ll be glad to shut the hell up.
Allow us to begin with the ISO’s puzzling support for Ralph Nader. Bona fide socialists have, in the past, supported reformist political formations in elections. However, the ISO completely misunderstands or just doesn’t care about the whys and wherefores. Supporting the Labor Party fifty years ago is not nearly the same thing as supporting the Green Party today. The Labor Party was formed by union militants and funded almost exclusively by working class organizations. Further, the Labor Party were an ostensibly socialist organization. That is to say, they at least in theory called for the abolition of capitalism. The point of voting for the Labor Party was not that they were “better” or “more left” or “represented a break with the Democrats (Liberals in the case of England).” The point of voting for mass ostensibly socialist working class political parties- and again, the Green Party is exactly zero of these things- was to support them, in the words of Lenin, “as a rope supports a hanged man.” Put more directly, socialists supported the Labor Party to get them elected and show militant workers that nothing could be accomplished through reformist channels.

Then there’s the fact that Nader’s campaign said absolutely disgusting things on immigration. Things that even consistent, principled progressives would reject out of hand, never mind people running around claiming to be socialists. However, in the final analysis the Green Party and Ralph Nader are far closer to Henry Wallace’s Progressive Party than they are anything resembling a Labor Party. While the craven Stalinists of the CP-USA supported the Wallace campaign, bona fide revolutionary socialists did not. Indeed, the ISO becomes more and more like the CP-USA with each passing year, bleating their “fight the right, build the left” trans-class, watered-down pap.
Hate Socialism, Hate the Working Class
But this is really just part of the broader thrust of the ISO’s attitude toward workers. Basically, they think working class people are just too damn stupid to have socialism explained to them. Forgetting things I have personally overheard- most disgustingly that Southern working class people are “inbred”- there are things like “What We Stand For.” Nowhere in that list are Marxist fundamentals such as The Communist Manifesto (which has the word the ISO are most terrified of in its very title) or Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. While the language can be a little archaic, there’s nothing terribly difficult about reading either of these immensely powerful and highly relevant tracts on socialism. Nor does the ISO push easily readable works by such real life working class people like Eugene Debs or James P. Cannon. What does the ISO recommend people read? Dumbed down “interpretations” of Marxism from their own tendency. Don’t give workers something to read and figure out on their own. No. Read something for them and explain it in the most puerile and childish fashion possible. No wonder the ISO has always languished on college campuses, unable to establish any base within the working class, ever. Note the ratio of college towns to working class hubs in their list of chapters.

Building Illusions, Not the Left
I have problems with the term “the left” when used by socialists. For my own part, I don’t wish to be a part of “the left.” I wish to be part of a revitalized and reinvigorated working class movement. But let’s not quibble over terms. Let’s talk about the International Socialist Organization in action.
I’d like to begin with this disgusting little piece where the ISO urges Barack Obama to read more. Hey dumb fucks- Barack Obama has an Ivy League education. He’s totally aware of the shit sandwich that working class people have to eat every day. He doesn’t need his consciousness raised, because he clearly doesn’t care and even if he did Marxism says that he can’t do anything about it as the head of the capitalist state. Almost as disgusting is their address of left-bourgeois nationalist Hugo Chavez as “Comrade President.” But that’s the ISO for you. Tail after anything that moves, especially if it’s popular on a college campus. Don’t draw clear class lines and provide sharp analysis. That’s like, totally sectarian.
Then there’s their mis-named annual conference called “Socialism.” Moar liek “Reformism” amirite? Read their article on it which, without the slightest trace of shame, reports on Amy Goodman and writers for The Nation speaking at a conference ostensibly devoted to socialism. Check out the schedule for Socialism 2009 which has all kinds of workshops on any manner of identity politics you can think of not to mention entirely frivolous workshops for the politically unserious, and all manner of capitulation to opportunism but only one which features the words “working class”- and that one was largely focused on giving left cover to the ANC.
Indeed, the ISO isn’t even in the business of doing what they say they do- “building the left.” What they spend most of their time doing is providing left cover for reactionary and bourgeois forces that are “on the left” in only the most shallow and impressionistic manner possible.
A Final Thought: On “Sectarianism”
The response of the ISO (and really any opportunist) on drawing clear class and political lines is to mindlessly and automatically bleat charges of “sectarianism.” You see, the ISO sees the role of socialists to tail after anything that moves and not to provide leadership. Refusing to chase after any “movement” is roundly chastised as being “sectarian” and “standing outside the movement.” Specifically, the movement which I support politically has been derided as “sectarian” a number of times for not “liking” unions (as if a political stance on the nature of the AFL-CIO bureaucracy was somehow like a middle school lunch room) and not “getting involved in struggle.” Nothing else really is needed to point out the essentially opportunist, trans-class, and movementist nature of the International Socialist Organization. However, to anyone susceptible to such nonsense, I counter that the Workers’ League (predecessor of the Socialist Equality Party) routinely did paper sales outside of factories and mine shafts when the ISO and the rest of the fake left were running for cover on college campuses. To this day, the SEP devotes more column inches to covering actual working class fights than any other left organization of which I am aware. The ISO’s constant accusations of “sectarianism” against any group which refuses to chase after anything that moves cuts to the heart of the bankruptcy of their politics. What they cannot fight politically, they smear with emotionally charged nonsense, frequently echoing old Stalinist rhetoric they aren’t even aware of.

Which brings us back to the beginning. The International Socialist Organization is not a socialist group. It is a reformist organization, oriented toward middle class radical liberals and students. It makes no attempt at educating its cadre in bona fide Marxist theory, because these cadres would quickly realize that the ISO has nothing to do with socialism or working class politics. I challenge all members of the ISO reading this and their supporters to counter the things I have said with facts and ideas, rather than the base name-calling that they generally direct at anyone with the audacity to have politics not palatable to middle class liberals.










Posts
Wow, your right on point. I ran into the ISO of New Haven last spring for their anti-war events. After the march in DC I tried to keep up with them and go to meetings. I’m was just trying to find a door into some kind of revolution as a working class student. And to be a honest I couldn’t stand to hear them crying about starving children in forign nations. My anger toward the banks and insurance companies were completly ignored until it came up in there paper. The only good thing about them was it was a stepping stone into other liberal revolutionary organizations in my city. Just shut the fuck up and throw a damm brick.
| October 15, 2009 @ 8:33 pm
I would STRONGLY recommend making the World Socialist Web Site a regular part of your daily media intake. It’s as close as there is to a New York Times or Economist for the working class. I cannot recommend it strongly enough.
| October 16, 2009 @ 8:14 pm
It is totally absurd that there is this really large thread that ISO members are “petty bourgeois.” Yea, some people are the kids of people who went to Harvard or whatever- you don’t need to be from the working class to be on the side of the working class. However, the vast majority of ISO members that I know (including myself) are hungry on a fucking daily basis (and some of us- such as myself- have lived our whole lives that way. I was raised on a reservation and my family lived in a trailer without plumbing- not a trailer home, a trailer for camping, the kind that gets towed behind a truck.)
Oh yea, and I call myself a commie all the time. I’m a proud commie. To me it’s interchangeable with the words “revolutionary socialist.” But I do distinguish between little c communism and big C Communism (Communism = Stalinism- which was a class society- a totally repressive one that functions based on the same forces as capitalism- read a little Capital and you would understand. Communism is not what I’m fighting and willing to die for.)
Do you really think that spouting untruths are helping anyone??
| October 16, 2009 @ 7:50 pm
I don’t know what I’ve said that is untrue. The presence of specific working class and poor people within the ISO does not change the fact that your tendency began as concession to the class pressures of anti-communist, anti-Soviet, middle class liberals. It doesn’t change the fact that the majority of ISO members (so far as I can tell- and I’ve met A LOT… possibly more than you even) are petty bourgeois and that I have seen key members of your leadership (Anthony Arnove, Ahmed Shawki, Julie Fain, Ashley Smith) talk to working class people like they were mentally retarded. It doesn’t change the fact that the ISO makes no attempt to politically educate its membership in Marxist fundamentals- working class people are like, way too dumb for that or something. It doesn’t change the fact that to this day the ISO orients politically toward middle class liberals (Amy Goodman, The Nation magazine, etc.) and the trade union bureaucracy (are you guys still running for every shop steward position you possibly can?). It doesn’t change the fact that the history of the ISO is the history of chasing after anything that moves and crying “SECTARIAN!” at anyone seeking clear political and class analysis.
And FWIW, I’ve never heard anyone in another political tendency (and I’ve spent my fair share of time around people in just about every group on the ostensibly socialist left) describe poor southerners as “inbred” or mock the accents of working class Bostonians or make bizarre arguments about dog breeding being “racist.”
When Trotsky was fighting the Shachtmanites at the end of his life- people who became arch reactionaries, and whom your tendency still shills on their merch tables (check out what Hal Draper ended up doing with his life)- he routinely referred to them as “a petty bourgeois opposition.” Is he talking about the class nature of the opposition, their politics, or both? Is there any correlation between the two?
I’m not surprised that you have resorted to the kind of appeal to emotion (PROTIP: the old timey socialist newspaper was called Appeal to Reason) common among Cliffites. Rather than engaging politically with me, you have relied upon personal biography. What does that say about the strength of your tendency’s politics? Again, I challenge you to find specific untruths in my article, and to argue against the politics in it. If all you have as a rebuttal is appeal to emotion and- with all due respect- personal sob stories, all you’re really doing is making my point for me.
| October 16, 2009 @ 8:12 pm
Whoa, that whole “fighting and willing to die for” thing seems pretty disturbing. As a former anarchist, I always wondered whether the communists would kill me during some imaginary revolutionary time. This kind of shit confirms my suspicions. Thank Mao I don’t give a shit anymore.
I don’t care for the ISO either, just as much as I don’t care for any -ism. Regardless of -isms and politics, you still have your own brain to deal with, and no one from any class is likely to give a damn about what you do with it.
I have solidarity with other individuals I have met when I FEEL a physical rapport with them. Not because we agree on opinions, political beliefs, or anything else. Just because I feel and experience a rapport. I would defend my friends if situations called for it, but not because an ideology tells me that doing so will achieve some imagined end.
There’s my two cents on the matter.
| October 16, 2009 @ 9:07 pm
Amen & well put.
| October 20, 2009 @ 10:31 am
I’m a enthusiastic member of the ISO, and in the time I have been going to ISO events, and finally joined I have learned quite a bit about class struggle and gained valuable skills in political activism. I appreciate your sharing your thoughts, Nick, but I felt strongly that I needed to respond to this post because it is a misrepresentation of what the ISO is doing and stands for..in my mind as a member of the organization.
Rather than trying to straight out defend a organization against what I would claim above is a mischaracterization, I will speak on behalf of my own beliefs. I am not a fucking liberal! First and foremost I am a revolutionary. I do not believe this system can satisfy people’s needs, and it is based upon the injustice of oppresssion and exploitation. Second of all, I see a socialist revolution as one step towards creating a truly democratic society where power is decentalized in the long run. I have learned these ideas during the time I have spent around the ISO.
Now, on to the ISO. This is a very visible organization, and I feel that many people use it as a sort of punching bag to get out their frustration with the overall pathetic state of class struggle in the face of awful conditions. The ISO is not perfect, and needs to be criticized when strategies are not effective, this is important in order to have progress within the radical revolutionary movement. However there is a difference between this and attacking it. The ISO is on the side of the working class, and is working to promote revolution. We (it’s members) are open to debate about disagreements about strategy, but do you think it’s really a good idea to attack allies? Let’s talk about disagreements as people on the same side instead of placing ourselves in direct opposition to each other.
I would like to address what I think is a disagreement the author above has (because I have seen it come from other groups on the revolutionar left), but did not plainly state. He thinks that the ISO strategy is not radical enough (this is implied in his FALSE claims that ISO members do no subscribe to Trotsky and,,, or read the Manifesto or Socialism: Scientific and Utopian). The ISO strategy is indeed about having a revoutionary vanguard, but we also understand that where consciousness is now, you cannot call for outright revolution, you have to reach people at where their consciousness is, and then help them to learn for themselves why it’s important to fight for more than just whatever struggle they support (such as antiwar, health care, anti-racism) but to end the entire system.
I’m going to stop here because I feel that the author has staked out a stance where he is unwilling to engage in an open debate–where the ISO can be evaluated rather than simply attacked as an anti-revolutionary organization–and has already reached his conclusion about ISO politics. Of course, if I have misunderstood or misrepresented you ideas, Nick, I apologize, but I hope that this exchange can be constructive in improving our mutual understanding.
Finally, I believe that the ISO is an excellent organization with a very clear headed strategy…that we not only need to fight to win our basic rights such as access to health care and other government services, speaking out against war and racism, but that we need to unwaveringly promote revolutionary ideas and actions.
To those who want to engage and learn more about ISO politcs…check out the speeches ISO members gave at recent national events which the ISO helped to organize and build:
At the G20: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfE9NjvflAc
At the Nat’l Equality March (2nd speaker): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Vtp2mNKU0
Also, you can watch and listen to the talks held at our conference over the summer:
http://www.socialismconference.org/schedule.php (note, there is a talk on TROTSKY)
And, consider coming to one of our regional conferences in different areas of the country come November:
http://socialistworker.org/2009-socialist-conferences
If you have a problem with the ISO, Nick. Please engage us in a debate, also get to know our politics ( I strongly feel that you have never been to a conference or ISO event)…this is healthier than simply attacking the organization with what I consider to be misrepresentations that only serve to promote infighting and an unhealthy bias against my organization.
Peace, Love, Solidarity, and Revolution
Rob
| October 17, 2009 @ 11:40 am
Let me break this down piece by piece.
First of all, one does not become a revolutionary by proclaiming it to be so. One becomes a revolutionary through deeds. I don’t mean throwing up barricades- words can be deeds as well. A consistent propaganda record is certainly a “deed” of a type. The platform of the ISO says a lot about “revolution.” However, the deeds of your tendency over the last 60 years speak volumes against that. It’s worth pointing out that the Mensheviks also thought they were revolutionaries. It didn’t make it so. The POUM that the ISO loves so much were roundly criticized by Trotsky for thinking they were revolutionaries while being reformists in practice. The ISO are a group oriented, not toward the working class- again, I am aware this is going to be a very confusing statement to you because you are so focused on a highly superficial appraisal of rhetoric- but toward the radical layers of the middle class and trade union bureaucracy. This can be seen for reasons I have identified in my article. Namely your hopping into bed with every petty bourgeois force possible, including obvious class enemies such as prison guard unions and the social chauvinist Ralph Nader.
It’s also worth pointing out that Lenin and Trotsky spent more time polemicizing against other self-proclaimed “socialists” than anyone else. These “socialists” also thought they were on the side of the working class and socialist revolution, but they most certainly were not. Like the ISO, they were an obstacle to the formation of a bona fide revolutionary party, and did nothing but sow criminal confusion and disorientation among the working class. You are not allies of mine, the working class, or socialism. You are political charlatans who provide left cover for the trade union bureaucracy and radical layers of the liberal middle class (who in turn provide left cover for Democrats who provide left cover for whom?). Your organization has nothing to do with socialism, revolutionary or otherwise, despite your subjective and impressionistic “thought.”
ISO members do not support any significant theory of Trotsky- name ONE! You are being lied to by your political leadership! Trotsky would have spit in the face of the ISO! Read In Defense of Marxism to find out what he thought of groups like the ISO, including people whose work is regularly featured on ISO literature tables. Further, if you had read my article closely, you would see that I cited the fact that the link I posted has no primary source Marxist material. Nor do most of your lit tables. I know because I’ve been looking at them in disgust for over 15 years.
Your intellectual weakness and political opportunism is laid bare by the statement to “not call for revolution.” Really? When do you start explaining to workers that they are exploited and that capitalism is a dead end? When do they know the correct secret handshakes to get Marxist theory that doesn’t come from Duncan Hallas? No one is talking about organizing an army. But patiently explaining the need for revolution, and how everything else is a dead fucking end is the role of a revolutionary. Don’t take my word for it. READ TROTSKY. Read The Transitional Program which one your members idiotically criticized me for “believing in,” as if it were some kind of Holy Scripture. Nope. It’s just the founding document of the Trotskyist movement, and it is highly relevant today.
Once again- revolutionary rhetoric and talking about Trotsky doesn’t make you revolutionaries or Trotskyists. It makes you opportunists who talk radically when its appropriate and bloc with Amy Goodman and the Nation magazine without the slightest trace of shame. If Trotsky stood for one thing it was the political independence of the working class. The ISO stands for tailing after any petty bourgeois formation that moves.
I am more familiar with your politics and history than most of your members. I have attended both ISO meetings and SWP-GB meetings. I have attended Socialism TWICE. I have, in fact, won members AWAY from the ISO (ask Mark in Amherst about the Heresy Collective some time- I won EVERY SINGLE ONE away from the ISO). I know it’s probably easier to think that I have these opinions out of ignorance. But I assure you that I have them out of intimate knowledge with both the ISO and its members and leadership. Your rhetoric about subjective “feelings” is all too typical of an ISO member.
Go read some Trotsky and come back. Not what Ahmed Shawki or Tony Cliff SAYS about Trotsky. What the man himself had to say. Then come back to the big boy sandbox and we’ll have a chat.
| October 17, 2009 @ 4:53 pm
Thanks for the response..I don’t think you or I can have the right answers simply as individuals, but through an honest dialogue people can discover a better understanding.
I’ll keep your arguments in mind since they go deeper than what I’ve debated in the past..although right now I still consider the ISO’s claim to be working towards revolution a legitimate one….I won’t dispute that ISO strategies could be sharpened in this reguard, and for this reason I want to continue the discussion to share ideas about the best way to promote revolution. I don’t think there needs to be a line drawn in the sand and an all out attack, but instead we can share ideas and evolve in consciousness and thus in strategy.
But back to my argument that that ISO is indeed promoting revolution, although maybe not in the direct way you would like to see. Consider this perspective…
I think it is worth considering from a cultural perspective that there can be different roles within sections of the working class (whether middle, lower, upper and anything in between) in making revolution. I agree that there are a good number of ISO members who come from the middle/upper of the working class, but I still think that they are working to promote revolutionary ideas. I think you have a problem that they haven’t turned directly to the sections of the working class that are experiencing the worst conditions right now…BUT I think that the cultural divide within different sections of the working class makes it difficult to work with a group of people where there there is a descent amount of mutual cultural ignorance. For example, if you don’t come from the ghetto, you probably couldn’t just waltz in and start organizing ghetto neighborhoods…you work to organize your own community. I’m arguing that the ISO is largely organizing it’s section of the working class…this is a separate argument about ISO politics in relation to Trotsky.
(On that note, thus far I would have to argue that from my experience we do indeed read and look to Trotsky for direction…but as a recent member (about one year) I can’t respond very much on this topic right now.)
This is not meant to be a complete response to your ISO criticisms, but an attempt at an explanation that derives from my stance that the ISO is an organization working to promote revolution.
To rephrase, the ISO is indeed dominantly made up of teachers, and other members of the middle class section of the working class..and I don’t think that they can be blamed for appealing the most to people within their section of the working class because these are the peopel that the know and understand best.
Now I can’t speak for the broader and longer term ISO strategy..but it seems to be primarily about getting marxist ideas to a larger audience.
I think that if these people could be convinced that there needs to be a workers revolution to end capitalism, other people in this section of the working class too can be convinced.
I think that over the long term indeed there needs to be a focus on different sections of the working class turning to other sections to raise consciousness. However, right now I feel it is important to establish a base of strength before taking on this very difficult task of cross cultural communication/cooperation..and as an ISO member I would like in the long run to be able to organize resources to do this.
Of course, if you disagree and think that there are ways to overcome the challenge I outlined, please share.
| October 19, 2009 @ 2:44 pm
Saw some shortsightedness to the argument I just posted considering that the strategy of setting up base on college campuses happened a while ago, and thus brought the ISO to it’s current trajectory of growing membership from this section of the working class.
To give a more general response, I feel that you are taking aspects of ISO activities and using them to forward your argument that the ISO is not genuinely pro-revolution. Whatever shortcomings or mistakes their may be in some specific aspects of ISO activities, I think you can look at the ISO as a whole and so how mobilizing resources to promote gay liberation is a smart strategy for increasing consciousness and mobilizing our class to do direct battle with the system that depends upon homophobia to reproduce itself.
(Again a reference to the Nat’l Equality March)
| October 19, 2009 @ 3:05 pm
Look, the point is that the ISO has nothing in the way of principles. If they thought that chasing after prison guard unions was going to increase their membership they would do it… in fact they have done so in the past. I think teachers are members of the working class. The point is that their social power is almost nil. The entire bent of the ISO is on getting immediate, transitory, and ephemeral “results” at the expense of long-term organization building and political education. And their high turnover rate shows of effective that strategy is. How many steel workers, truckers, longshoreman, communication workers, miners, etc. do you have? I mean, fuck, man… even the fucking Sparts have a base among longshoremen and communication workers. What does the ISO have?
And again, I would say that mouthing “revolutionary” rhetoric has next to little to do with being a revolutionary. Read Trotsky’s criticisms of the POUM and the Schactmanites. Or Lenin’s polemics against Kautsky- he “thought” he was a revolutionary too. Just because ISO members “think” they are revolutionary doesn’t mean anything. It’s about their broader role in the world. I would think that, as someone who professes to be a Marxist, you would know that.
| October 22, 2009 @ 5:01 pm
You rail against the “middle class” ISO, yet have nothing but good things to say about an organization that is literally led by a capitalist. Puzzling.
| October 17, 2009 @ 8:43 pm
1. I suppose I will have to mention that Engels owned factories which supplied the IWA with much dollars, since the ISO and their supporters are woefully ignorant of Marxist history.
2. The ICFI is collectively led. David North is the National Chairman of the American section. So far as I’m aware he’s more of an emeritus leader than anything, but the point needs to be made that there is no personality cult around David North and he isn’t running the show. Unlike most other tendencies the ICFI has a long and storied history of “throwing the bums out.”
3. The ISO could be nothing but middle class people if they didn’t also have middle class politics or pretend to be “working class” (which I think generally means majoring in Labor Studies). Lenin was a lawyer. Watch me not care.
4. If you’re a supporter of the IBT you should probably be hanging your head in shame for reasons too extensive to get into here.
5. When the rest of “the left” was retreating to college campuses, the Workers’ League (predecessor of the SEP) were still slogging away outside of factories and mines. They are the only organization of which I am aware which has a consistent, and indeed relentless focus on the working class.
6. I’m going to assume at this point that no one is going to make political arguments and just resort to personal attacks and BAWWW.
| October 17, 2009 @ 9:52 pm
1. I am very well aware. But you’re the one who started the “let’s reduce politics to sociology” game. How’s that glass house working out for you?
2. It’s hard to imagine anything other than a cult clinging to the notion that James Hansen was working for the U.S. state, etc.
3. I have very mixed feelings about the ISO, but found your critique weak, predictable and incoherent in the extreme.
4. I’m not — it’s just the first Googled reference I found to an established fact.
5. If that’s the only one you’re “aware” of, you clearly haven’t been looking very far — Solidarity members have been the driving force behind Labor Notes for some time. Regardless: there you go again reducing politics to sociology. There is at least some justification for focusing on campuses when our main objective is propaganda rather than agitation. There’s also no reason to presume, now, that “college student” automatically equals “middle class”. A B.A. now often guarantees you only a good number of years of abuse from temp agencies.
6. It would probably take me more time than it’s worth to unwind all your strands of thought here. Instead, I just highlighted the most absurd.
All this said, I dig the blog in general. I just found this an unusually ill-conceived post.
| October 17, 2009 @ 10:34 pm
1. I believe I also criticized their politics. Quite extensively. Their politics are disgusting.
2. Actually, I believe their claim is that he was a GPU agent. But I think the Carleton College phenomenon is more damning in regards to the SWP than Joseph Hansen.
3. “Incoherent in the extreme?” Please.
4. Which, as you have probably surmised, I was previously aware of. It’s not the first time I’ve heard it used as some kind of damning critique of the ICFI. I don’t see it as one.
5. Fair enough. Solidarity are also a multi-tendency, post-Trotskyist mish mash. Not really my thing.
Focusing on campuses at the expense of work among workers seems to me to be a retreat from class struggle and a concession to “students are the new working class” BS.
6. Glad to hear you like it. I still hate the ISO. And make no regrets, except that I let my glee in trolling them get in the way of making my (legitimate) points.
| October 17, 2009 @ 10:58 pm
I’m a fucking liberal, and I think you guys are cute, all arguing about shit like your particular ideas about some dude who got himself killed most of a century ago actually mattered. I mean sure, it’s interesting and all, and I’m sure it’s fun, but so is masturbation.
Not that I’m against revolution, from an ideological perspective. I just don’t see how it’s fucking relevant. I keep looking for someone to give me answers as to how you launch a real socialist revolution in this country, given the current state of affairs, and all I get is rehashed bullshit rhetoric from before my father was born. I keep looking for someone to give me answers about how you get a real workers’ party going in this country, and I get to pick from century-old militant ideas and half-assed largely reformist development campaigns that relentlessly show a lack of understanding of how this country is run and what you’d have to do to keep it from falling apart almost immediately after assuming power. All I see is ways to waste my fucking time and endanger my life and livelihood with no realistic chance for success. I’m sitting here waiting to be convinced that revolution is anything worth pursuing, but no one is making a convincing argument.
So you know what? I am a reformist. A fucking liberal. A progressive. Because whatever you think about liberalism, it’s simply more effective than the seemingly inevitable frustration and failure of a revolutionary program. And there’s a hell of a lot more of us than there are of you.
| October 18, 2009 @ 2:30 am
I don’t think it is very effective at all. The current president being a good example.
Listen, I think a few things are important to remember:
1) Yes. My blog is for jacking off. If you want real politics read the World Socialist Web Site daily. I do, and it’s a great perspective on the rest of the news. I also think that they escape the trap of sounding like they’re still standing on a street corner in 1933. IMHO it’s as good as the NY Times or The Economist.
2) Building a revolution at this point basically means… explaining shit to people. Over and over and over and over and over again. Not much else can be done. I know that’s frustrating to people. But if you’ve got a better idea I’d sure love to hear it.
3) There is a value in knowing the ins and outs of the history of the workers’ movement. Mostly because a bunch of stuff has already been tried and failed. Comparatively fewer stuff has been tried and worked. Learning these lessons is immensely valuable, whatever those lessons may be.
4) I’d rather have 50 people who are correct and good at politics than 500 people (or even 5000) who aren’t sure what they believe and aren’t very good at politics. You of all people know how effective the right is at organizing. One way of looking at Leninism is viewing it as a way that the working class organizes in such a manner. Not a soupy morass of “good people,” but the tip of a spear.
| October 18, 2009 @ 12:41 pm
You can explain shit to people over and over again, but the machinery of propaganda feeds people widely-held bullshit a thousand times a day, and can and does paint you as a traitor for being a communist. And if you are able to become strong enough, among internal informants, spies, surveillance, and provocateurs aiming to destroy you, they can just ramp up the propaganda strong enough to do whatever awful shit they want to do to stop you with very little opposition. Creating working space under that sort of inhibiting pressure is difficult at best.
Liberals have more head room, by nature of their vastly reduced threat to the establishment, larger numbers, and mainstream populist appeal. Consequently, it’s easier to find liberals who are good at politics– there are even some working in government already, wishing the overall conversation actually reflected their views. As for correct, what exactly are we talking about here? Some measurement of ideological purity? Well shit, I’m fresh out of that. But then, the socialist workers of the 30s didn’t suggest getting rid of money in the short term, either. I advocate making the least possible amount of changes that can still result in a stable, just, democratic and free system. The argument for communist revolution to accomplish that task is that liberalism would be smashed by a well-funded fascist backlash. But how is communist revolution in any way immune to that? In either case, you either fight to defend freedom or you don’t. While militancy is a common feature of communist revolutions, there is no reason that violent resistance to fascism could not be a feature of American liberalism.
As far as WSWS goes, it’s a good site with good writing. But I think it does fall into the trap of writing specifically for Labor Studies majors fairly frequently. Nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with having a clear understanding of class politics, of the nuances of communist theory and history and such. But until it’s on television, until it’s in the mainstream, dumbed down for the masses and a part of consensus reality, I don’t see the revolution happening. I do, however, see you shitting on liberals and the ISO for being reformists, voting for the less conservative of two conservative assholes, etc. You get to have a pleasant feeling of ideological superiority based on this, but it accomplishes not even as much as the hopelessly hollow successes of liberals.
Consider– if you were to get a real socialist that met your approval elected to the senate, how would you be able to distinguish their performance from that of a proper liberal (not an Obama ‘centrist’ type, but a real one), given the political climate we currently face? In this political environment, there is vastly more need for a broad coalition of the oppositional left than use in divisive shit-talk between differing perspectives.
| October 18, 2009 @ 2:11 pm
Ok, dude. I guess I’ll just roll over and die. Because it’s not like the Bolsheviks made a revolution in one of the most repressive countries on Earth or anything.
Enough with charges of “ideological purity.” Liberals simply (for the last fucking time) do not have the same goals as me. You liberals currently have a supermajority in Congress and the Presidency, and now you whinge like children about how 5 or 6 conservative Democrats in the Senate are ruining everything. When will you realize that liberalism can not and will not do anything other than stab working class people in the back. It’s not a question of what liberals “want,” it is a question of objective reality. Liberalism is a bourgeois philosophy and is concerned with propping the system up, not tearing it down.
Your cynical and dismissive attitudes of the “intelligence” of Americans is highly disturbing and problematic. If you really think that working class people in America are too stupid to get the WSWS or that they’re just going to allow themselves to get fucked harder and harder by the machine and not do anything about it, there isn’t much I have to say to you, politically speaking.
An SEP member in the Senate would use his seat as a bully pulpit to explain to people that capitalism was a system of exploitation beyond reform. That would be one key difference. There were Bolsheviks in the Duma and they didn’t try and figure out how best to run the machinery of the capitalist state. They used their position to destroy it. And they did a bang up job.
| October 19, 2009 @ 11:37 am
I do not consider the vast majority of democrats to be liberals by any meaningful definition of the term, nor would the majority of thoughtful progressives. They are corrupt agents of the right wing who make populist platitudes to appease the liberal majority while largely acting against the liberal agenda. That corruption is the root of the problem, and unless specifically addressed strongly and continuously it will destroy the freedom and legitimacy of any nation regardless of economic system, as evidenced by both the USSR and China. It is that culture of corruption which forms the foundation for totalitarianism of all creeds, not merely the nature of capitalism.
The fact is that any complex economy requires effective allocation of resources, and a well-regulated market economy is not only no more prone to abuse than central planning (whatever Marx and Trotsky said), but in accomplishing the goals of liberalism it is not functionally different from a socialist system. The only functional difference between liberals and communists is one of approach. The medium-term goals of both systems of thought are the same– liberty, justice, and equality both social and economic. Yet semantic differences and yes, a demand for ideological purity, blind communists to this in an effort to destroy an otherwise useful and powerful united front with many common goals. The single-minded conviction that capitalism is THE cause of all evil and revolution starting and ending the destruction of the capitalist system can be the only solution for our nation’s problems, at the expense and to the detriment of any sort of progress towards solving those problems by other means is frankly irrational and counter-productive to your own goals, and as far as the intelligence of the working class goes, they’re plenty smart enough to recognize that fact. They have rejected and will as likely as not continue to reject the revolutionary doctrine you espouse in any situation short of full-on economic collapse. I would go so far as to say that the language of the American socialists you have posted here as examples of your belief is less revolutionary than your own rhetoric, and the envisioned early-stage program of their revolution is not different from the goals or methods of liberalism in any way. Yet you draw a hard line against what should be your closest allies, one I can only assume is derived from marinating in Bolshevik writings and history to the point of isolation of thought, ignoring the broad similarities you have in common with people from across the broad left, eschewing the politics of coalition. And for what purpose?
Now, if you really don’t have the goals of liberty and justice for all in mind, just the same as any liberal, then perhaps your breed of communism is more nefarious and ugly than I thought, or at least less cohesive. But I don’t think that’s the case. You want to start a revolution by explaining things over and over? Explain why communism is preferable to a liberal society without resorting to partisan hackery denouncing liberalism as unachievable (an emotional and easily rejected argument).
| October 19, 2009 @ 11:37 pm
Can a left political current that you don’t agree with, achieve revolutionary change in society? While it was not the main point of your piece, you mentioned President Chavez in order to help denounce the ISO. I admit that Hugo Chavez isn’t perfect but even he’s said that Socialism is a process, if he was really so bourgeois why does the domestic and international bourgeoisie so much effort into trying to remove or undermine him? How else would you characterize what going on in Venezuela?
| October 18, 2009 @ 9:17 pm
I think the point you raise about a group I don’t agree with and revolutionary change is worth responding to. Basically, the point you have raised is the genesis of all capitulation to Stalinism and reformism over the last 50 years. Marxism teaches that a conscious revolutionary party is necessary for a revolution. Taking what you have said to its logical conclusion- why bother building revolutionary parties? Why not just tail behind whatever the biggest, hottest thing is and try and push it to the left? But the history of the 20th century can be seen, in large part, as the history of failed revolutions. The thing missing in, for example, Spain 1936, is a conscious revolutionary party of the working class. Marxism teaches- and I believe that history vindicates- that “unconscious revolutionaries,” no matter how well intentioned, cannot lead working class revolutions.
I think Hugo Chavez is a left-bourgeois nationalist and a demagogue who sometimes uses socialist rhetoric. If the guy is such a socialist an friend of the working class, why hasn’t he moved to the masses against the bourgeoisie in Venezuela? I think the domestic and international bourgeoisie hate him because they want somebody who squeezes workers harder than he does, and isn’t so Bonapartist in balancing class forces. I admit that Chavez gives concessions to the working class, but they are in the name of preserving capitalism, not destroying it. The international bourgeoisie hated Saddam Hussein and Col. Qadaffi, but no one claims that they are socialists.
Finally, I must state once again that I do not consider these political questions to be abstract. On the contrary, I think they are absolutely necessary in building for and planning a revolution.
| October 18, 2009 @ 9:45 pm
Oh, man. Where to start.
How about with a comment on honesty. I would like to be charitable, polemicizing against a comrade, even one who won’t call me by that title. I would like to attribute some of the misinformation in this post to ignorance, deriving from too much time spent talking about 50-year-old fights among various miniscule Western left groups and too little doing anything else. But I can’t, given all the specific claims about personal observation of behavior by named prominent members of the ISO. Look, either you know the ISO well enough to know that not only do its members read and promote Marxist classics, but also it has actually republished new editions of the Communist Manifesto, Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution, and Luxemburg’s Reform and Revolution, and has more on the way – or you don’t know it well enough to have met and recognized Anthony Arnove, Ahmed Shawki, Julie Fain, and Ashley Smith. You’re lying about one or the other.
Now, about those communist classics. Given that we do, in fact, read them, your complaint seems to boil down to the fact that we don’t read them exclusively – we also publish original works of Marxist analysis and propaganda. What’s wrong with that? Is a deviation from the exact line that Engels or Trotsky laid down back in the day such a disastrous possibility that we should be afraid to try any method of understanding other than the parsing and re-parsing of the founding texts?
I’m not going to take on every sentence, because I’ve got to go to work pretty soon. But lets take a couple to which I’m not supposed to have a response.
“For example, they have no response to the fact that Trotsky supported the invasion of Poland by the Soviet Union because it would bring the socially progressive property forms of the Russian Revolution to Poland.”
How’s this: Trotsky was wrong. (Ooh, blasphemy!) I won’t go into the argument here, but Callinicos’ “Trotskyism”, available at http://www.marxists.de/trotism/callinicos/index.htm, is pretty good on the debates of the 40s.
“They have nothing to say when you confront them with the fact that their ideological forebearers became rabid anti-communists while the faction supporting so-called “Orthodox Trotskyism” died socialists.”
Some of both of our “ideological forebears” in Russia became the murderers of its working class. History is full of renegades. We don’t identify with Stalinism, and we don’t identify with Schactman. Since you haven’t come up with anything suggesting the ISO is soft on imperialism – if anything, you seem to think we’re too soft on “radical Islamists” – do you have a point? Or are you simply using “emotionally charged nonsense” where you can’t find a political argument?
As with your casual re-use of imperialist rhetoric about Muslim “radicals” – isn’t the critique actually that Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, are anything but really radical? – your aside about “any manner of identity politics you can think of” at the Socialism conference is inconclusive but interesting. It would appear that you are simply labeling any meeting which discusses racism, sexism, or LGBT or any other form of oppression as about “identity politics”. There is an unfortunate American tradition extending from some of your “hard as nails American socialists” to Gitlinite liberals of insisting that any discussion of special oppression is a distraction from the real issue, class. I had never thought that the SEP/WSWS promoted this particular idiocy. Was I wrong?
I’m going to ignore your undocumented accusations of condescension towards working class people, so just two more points.
First, the “bloc with Amy Goodman”. Trotsky had a term for this kind of alliance – the “united front”. He argued that revolutionary socialists need to participate in coalitions with other social forces in order to win immediate struggles (like that against fascism) and also to demonstrate in practice to the working class the superiority of Marxist politics. I assume you know something about this theory, although its true I’ve never heard of the SEP or WSWS participating in any kind of united front effort.
Of course, Trotsky argued against an alliance with sections of the bourgeoisie or bourgeois parties, the “popular front”. This is why the ISO does not make alliances with parties of the bourgeoisie like the Democrats (note, the lack of a capitalist constituency for the Green Party is obvious to anyone but an orthodox Trotskyist), but instead with people like Amy Goodman (who is, not that it really matters, left of the UK Labor Party by any reasonable measure, even its 70s variant).
Last, on the class-baiting, or in the nice phrase of an earlier commenter, the “‘lets reduce politics to sociology’ game”. I’ll say just two things. 1) The ISO has far more working class members, including members rooted in unions like the UFT, the SEIU, and (yes) the CWA, then the SEP or any of the other sects which like to pose as prolier-than-thou. 2) “Middle class” isn’t even Marxist terminology – its a vague term used by the US ruling class to try to bamboozle the country’s working-class majority into the belief that it has a stake in the status quo. At the least you ought to be accusing us of being “petty-bourgeois”, instead. I understand the desire to avoid jargon where possible, especially since your whole critique is already likely to come off as insanely insidery to anyone not steeped in revolutionary history, but this is one of those cases where the substitution really just can’t be made.
I’ll leave it there. Adios.
| October 27, 2009 @ 5:32 am
deriving from too much time spent talking about 50-year-old fights among various miniscule Western left groups and too little doing anything else.
Yeah, dude. You’re right. Not only do I never do anything but read David North, the history of the international workers’ movement is totally sectarian and irrelevant to today. Thanks for clearing that up.
Now that we’re done with the most irritatingly common slander of the ISO, let’s move on to the rest of your weak and entirely typical argument:
How’s this: Trotsky was wrong. (Ooh, blasphemy!)
About everything in his fight with the Schachtmanites, I suppose. You’re the one that thinks Trotskyism is an obscure religion, not me. I just happen to think he was correct. And find your members glaring ignorance on the subject to be an embarrassment to your organization. I suppose it’s also irrelevant that everyone whom I know personally that has undertaken a serious study of Marxist theory and history- without Alex Callinicos guiding them- has left the ISO.
When was the last time you had a class on The Revolution Betrayed and explained why Trotsky was wrong on a level deeper than “ZOMG TROTSKY WAS JUST TOO CLOSE TO IT TO MAKE ANYTHING BUT AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE.” Nope. Trotsky defended proletarian Marxism against petty bourgeois opportunism, the latter tradition being best embodied by the ISO.
Have your membership read In Defense of Marxism and figure out (without Ahmed Shawki glaring at them and coaching them through it) who they think was right about the Soviet Union and who was wrong.
Since you haven’t come up with anything suggesting the ISO is soft on imperialism – if anything, you seem to think we’re too soft on “radical Islamists” – do you have a point? Or are you simply using “emotionally charged nonsense” where you can’t find a political argument?
I’d say calling for a “pox on both houses” in regards to the Korean war is being soft on imperialism. Or, for that matter, any argument which obscures the difference between imperialism and Soviet expansionism. More recently, there’s backing sanctions in Iraq and calling for “peacefully” disarming Iran of nuclear weapons- Google that shit. The ISO is continually taking political lines which have everything to do with impressing middle class liberals and nothing to do with class struggle. Th
It would appear that you are simply labeling any meeting which discusses racism, sexism, or LGBT or any other form of oppression as about “identity politics”. There is an unfortunate American tradition extending from some of your “hard as nails American socialists” to Gitlinite liberals of insisting that any discussion of special oppression is a distraction from the real issue, class. I had never thought that the SEP/WSWS promoted this particular idiocy. Was I wrong?
I’ll leave it up to my readers to decide who is taking the piss here. I would argue that the recent ISO promotion of “LGBT” struggles is probably the worst form of identity politics you tail after. ISO members literally get reduced to a pile of blubber when you suggest that discrimination against homosexuals has absolutely fucking zero to do with racism or gender oppression, except in the most surface way.
The SEP is frequently criticized for not caring about race… kind of odd considering that their youth group in the 60s and 70s was overwhelmingly Black.
I’m going to ignore your undocumented accusations of condescension towards working class people, so just two more points.
How, precisely, do you suggest that I “document” things I’ve seen with my own two eyes?
First, the “bloc with Amy Goodman”. Trotsky had a term for this kind of alliance – the “united front”. He argued that revolutionary socialists need to participate in coalitions with other social forces in order to win immediate struggles (like that against fascism) and also to demonstrate in practice to the working class the superiority of Marxist politics. I assume you know something about this theory, although its true I’ve never heard of the SEP or WSWS participating in any kind of united front effort.
The ISO has just about the worst understanding of the United Front I have ever seen. It comes up every time one suggests that they are engaged in opportunism. Let me explain to you what the United Front is because your political leadership seems to have led you to believe that it is synonymous with the word “coalition.” The United Front was A SINGLE ACTION. Trotsky specifically denounced long-term coalitions with bourgeois forces. If you honestly think that the 4th International would have had Amy Goodman- an apologist for the Democratic Party and the Greens, another group you slavishly tail after- speaking at their events, I’m going to suggest that you don’t know shit from shinola.
The SEP, in its former incarnation the Workers’ League, was part of a broad coalition to build a Labor Party in America. At a time when the ISO and just about everyone else on the left was tailing after petty bourgeois formations and students.
This is why the ISO does not make alliances with parties of the bourgeoisie like the Democrats (note, the lack of a capitalist constituency for the Green Party is obvious to anyone but an orthodox Trotskyist)
Right. Small capitalists don’t love and give tons of money to the Green Party. And you’ve ignored the reason that Marxists supported (wait for it) reformist working-class based politically parties which ostensibly stood for socialism. PROTIP: It wasn’t because they were “left.” Finally, it’s worth noting that the Labor Party, until about ten years ago, explicitly called for the abolition of capitalism. Trivial, n’est pas?
The ISO has far more working class members, including members rooted in unions like the UFT, the SEIU, and (yes) the CWA, then the SEP or any of the other sects which like to pose as prolier-than-thou.
And the Democratic Party has more members than you in those unions and unions with actual social power like UMW, USW, IAMAW, ILWU, etc. It’s precisely the ISO’s emphasis on the numbers game- trying to get the most people rather than concentrating on organization building- that makes them the grossest opportunists on the American left. And like, not that I’m going to defend them, but you are aware that the Spartacist League has had a pretty strong base among Black Longshoremen. So fucking what? Does it all of a sudden make them a proletarian powerhouse?
The point is where your orientation is. I don’t see any videos of militant auto workers denouncing their corrupt leadership n Socialist Workers. But I do see lots of college kids dancing around like jackasses showing how “fun” socialism is. And writers for Democratic Party rags like The Nation shoveling shit.
Question: How often were Lenin and Trotsky denounced as “reformists” and “opportunists?” How often were they denounced by other socialists for being “too radical” or “ideological purists” or some other similar epithet?
That, of course, has no bearing on the matter at hand, does it? Jesus, ISO. Send someone with a lick of training in Marxism for once.
| October 27, 2009 @ 12:29 pm
It is arrogant to the point of total detachment from reality to equate the debate between Cliff and orthodox Trotskyists in the 40s and 50s with “the history of the international workers’ movement”, but of course this is typical of the sort of sect which sees itself as possessing the truth and the light and the way and denounces everyone else as a fake and a poseur. While I try to avoid remote psychoanalysis, I am also beginning to think that it is typical of you personally, Nick, with your view that everyone in the ISO would agree with you if you could just get them alone in a room with the Revolution Betrayed, and especially after this gem: “Send someone with a lick of training in Marxism for once.” Do you imagine yourself as some sort of knight of revolutionary purity standing in front of the bridge to the socialist camp and beating off a series of orcs sent by the great evil overlord, Ahmed Shawki, the Sauron to Tony Cliff’s Morgoth?
Was Trotsky wrong about about “everything in his fight with the Schachtmanites”? No, I plainly didn’t say that. Did I say the ISO’s working class membership guaranteed its class politics? No, you’re the one who started trying to deduce our politics from the fact that we do campus organizing. Have I or would I call you “too radical”? Only in your heroic fantasies.
You’ve never seen any videos of militant auto workers in SW? Maybe not; you’ve also clearly never tried entering “site:socialistworker.org uaw” into Google. Does the ISO have a history of “backing sanctions in Iraq and calling for ‘peacefully’ disarming Iran of nuclear weapons”? No, it has never done either. (Unless the overthrow of Iran’s rulers by its working class counts as “disarmament”.)
I think it’s telling that you only responded to a snarky aside in my first paragraph, rather than the point, which was to call you out for lying about either your familiarity with the ISO, or its treatment of Marxist classics. Telling because you continue the dishonesty; the ISO published a book of essays against the sanctions on Iraq, edited by a member. (But perhaps this is just evidence of our disregard for the old-school Marxists – how dare we print new material rather than Imperialism and World Economy!?)
All I find it necessary to point out about your understanding of the United Front is that the only example you managed to cite of the organization you support actually participating in one stems from more than a decade ago, when y’all had a different name.
Last, a question. Can you clarify what you think about discrimination against “homosexuals”, and how it differs from racial and gender oppressions, and how actions such as the National Equality March to which you must be referring are about “identity politics”? I’m really looking forward to this bit.
| October 27, 2009 @ 3:37 pm
your view that everyone in the ISO would agree with you if you could just get them alone in a room with the Revolution Betrayed
Hardly. I’m not much of a propagandist, and as you may have sussed, I’m a bit of an asshole. I do, however, suggest that a goodly portion of your members might be attracted to bona fide Marxism rather than your impressionistic rad lib bullshit. FWIW, I have won members away from the ISO in the past. The local branch curiously held a meeting called “Trotskyism After Trotsky” after I PWNED the local bigwig / only guy educated in Marxism in a pizza parlor debate over the class nature of the Soviet Union.
Just sayin’.
It is arrogant to the point of total detachment from reality to equate the debate between Cliff and orthodox Trotskyists in the 40s and 50s with “the history of the international workers’ movement”
Didn’t do that. In fact, Cliff is / was a very minor player internationally. To the best of my knowledge, he didn’t have much an international following when he and the FI parted ways. The biggest players in the Trotskyist movement were probably Pablo, Novak, Healy, Moreno, and Lambert. However the fight against revisionism, including that of Cliff, is important for people trying to understand Marxism. Again, you seem to suggest that because something is obscure that it is unimportant. Trotsky said in founding the Fourth International that the crisis of the working class was essentially boiled down to the crisis of revolutionary leadership. I think that the 20th century proved him correct in that regard.
Do you imagine yourself as some sort of knight of revolutionary purity standing in front of the bridge to the socialist camp and beating off a series of orcs sent by the great evil overlord, Ahmed Shawki, the Sauron to Tony Cliff’s Morgoth?
Wow. You really nailed it there, dude. I’m off to rally against the war with some Peace Democrats right now. Thanks for showing me what a sectarian I am.
Does the ISO have a history of “backing sanctions in Iraq and calling for ‘peacefully’ disarming Iran of nuclear weapons”? No, it has never done either. (Unless the overthrow of Iran’s rulers by its working class counts as “disarmament”.)
The ISO supported sanctions against Iraq in the early 90 on the eve of the first war. Deny it as much as you like. It’s a fact… just like it’s a fact that they supported the mujahideen in Afghanistan in the 1980s and British troops in Northern Ireland in the 70s and prison guard strikes in the US in the 90s. The ISO was one of many fake left groups- along with World Can’t Wait / RCP, and the bourgeois Progressive Democrats of America- who signed a petition which stated:
“The most effective way to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons would be to closely monitor its nuclear energy program, and to improve diplomatic relations… [w]e urge you to lead the way to peace, not war, and to begin by making clear that you will not commit the highest international crime by aggressively attacking Iran.”
Right. Not giving counsel to imperialists there at all. That’s totally a position that a revolutionary should be comfortable taking.
All I find it necessary to point out about your understanding of the United Front is that the only example you managed to cite of the organization you support actually participating in one stems from more than a decade ago, when y’all had a different name.
I’m not a member of the SEP, past or present. Your argument basically amounts to the idea that “doing something”- no matter what- is better than doing what the SEP does every day. I.e. put out a top notch news source for working class people. It’s worth noting that the Bolsheviks were little more than a newspaper for most of their existence. And from my POV there isn’t much to be done, particularly in this country, at this time, other than patiently explaining to workers how capitalism works. You’re going to say you talk to workers at your little rallies, but guess what- I don’t care. You could meet them at Klan rallies and churches too, are you going to start going there?
I also noticed that you entirely sidestepped the issue of a difference between a united and a popular front. Nice move, brahsef.
can you clarify what you think about discrimination against “homosexuals”, and how it differs from racial and gender oppressions, and how actions such as the National Equality March to which you must be referring are about “identity politics”? I’m really looking forward to this bit.
Sorry that I didn’t use the term currently fashionable among radical liberals.
I am opposed to all laws which subject homosexuals and other sexual minorities to social and legal sanction. I think that such laws are based on superstition and bigotry. However, a law which prevents homosexuals from marrying one another is quite simply not the same as laws requiring separate drinking fountains for Blacks, as basically any Black person will tell you.
First, let’s talk about race. Race occupies a special place in America, due to the failure of the bourgeoisie to finish their own revolution and integrate Blacks into American life. Simply put the manner in which Blacks are exploited in this country cannot, in any serious way be compared to homosexuals. I would turn the question around and ask you in what manner homosexuals are subject to special exploitation (and would like to take the opportunity to point out that exploitation is primarily what real Marxists talk about, yet you have yet to mention even a passing acquaintance with). Further, there is a long history of impoverishment of Blacks that does not, and has never existed with homosexuals. Finally, homosexuals can avoid social sanction through a number of means, a luxury not allowed to Blacks. Inb4 “ZOMG YOU’RE TELLING GAYS TO ACT STRAIGHT.” I am simply pointing out that homosexuals can and have escape their oppression through leading a slightly less vital life. Blacks do not have that option. Full stop.
Now let’s talk about gender. Again, women have been specially exploited to a degree and manner which is just not true of homosexual workers. Homosexual workers do not receive a lower rate of pay, are not forced into the worst jobs, and are not “last hired, first fired.” The analogy just doesn’t hold. Despite the best attempts by the ISO and other radical liberal groups to make the case that “all struggles are one,” this is a gross oversimplification.
Put simply, homosexuals do not earn half of what heterosexuals do and do not get pulled over for “driving while gay.”
I never meant to refer to the National Equality March, but I suspect it’s little more than the usual begging of bourgeois politicians that the ISO is known for tailing after.
Like the rest of your group, you pose hard. I noticed that you ignored a number of places where I pwn you. Like how I point out that using your definition the Democrats are the vanguard of the proletariat. Tell me, young padawan learner, do you even know what the phrase “social power” means?
| October 27, 2009 @ 7:12 pm
The ISO supported sanctions against Iraq in the early 90 on the eve of the first war. Deny it as much as you like. It’s a fact
You know, doubling down on an assertion against which I’ve already provided pretty strong evidence doesn’t make you convincing. It just confirms the tenuousness of your relationship to reality.
As for the petition, it doesn’t call for disarming Iran. It’s a petition against an attack on Iran. It includes some language, which it would undoubtedly not have included had the ISO written it, to the effect that Iran would be less likely to develop the bomb should the US cease threatening it, including a particularly bad, though ambiguous, phrase about “monitoring”. It would be better without that language. But given the choice between acting to defend Iran in the fact of an imperialist attack, or abstaining until everyone agrees with me, I’ll do the former every time.
Let me predict: You will respond by again accusing me of wanting to do something, “no matter what”, and suggesting the ISO might as well have gone to a Klan rally. The difference should be obvious, but nevertheless, let’s take up that point.
Your argument basically amounts to the idea that “doing something”- no matter what- is better than doing what the SEP does every day. I.e. put out a top notch news source for working class people.
Nice dodge, but actually my argument was that boasts about your superior understanding of the united front sound pretty hollow when you can’t name one you’ve participated in. One of the points of “doing something” – not just anything, but something that involves participation in bits of the class struggle, however small – is to develop the experience, relationships and abilities required to actually be able to lead the class. Theory divorced from practice isn’t worth much – remember “the point is to change it”?
Another point, of course, is that sometimes you can actually win a reform, or temporarily constrain imperialism. But, I have to concede, that’s not very revolutionary. I guess the Iranians can just wait for socialism.
While I’m making concessions, I’ll admit I don’t really have a problem with WSWS. It’s often pretty good, if you ignore the articles on other socialist groups. But you’re not going to develop a cadre or even keep in touch with reality long term if your activity is confined to running a website.
I also noticed that you entirely sidestepped the issue of a difference between a united and a popular front.
Actually I’m the only one who has made the distinction – unless your hint above about “a single event” was meant as a definition. Is a popular front, in your mind, just a united front that’s stuck around past its shelf life? (While we’re on the subject, I don’t really understand how that was supposed to be a critique of Amy Goodman speaking at Socialism. Isn’t a conference “a single event”?)
A few minor points, before we get to my favorite part.
Didn’t do that. Ok, so when I wrote, “50-year-old fights among various miniscule Western left groups”, and you wrote, “the history of the international workers’ movement”, you weren’t actually attempting to respond to me. That explains a lot, actually.
Like how I point out that using your definition the Democrats are the vanguard of the proletariat.
You’re making things up again. We’ve already established that you’re the only person deducing politics from sociological composition.
So, lets see… I have no interest in your unverifiable claims about your personal exploits. Nor do I have any intention of taking a quiz. I don’t know anything about the ISO’s predecessors’ stance on Northern Ireland in the 70s, and I’ll happily admit I’d rather have prison guards on strike than doing their jobs. That means now we get to talk about your bizarre stance on LGBT liberation. Oh, boy!
Sorry that I didn’t use the term currently fashionable among radical liberals.
Also the term currently fashionable among, y’know, actual members of the oppressed group in question. But hey, why should that matter? The guy who gave the following as the socialist ideal was probably some kind of radical liberal:
the tribune of the people, who is able to react to every manifestation of tyranny and oppression, no matter where it appears, no matter what stratum or class of the people it affects; who is able to generalise all these manifestations and produce a single picture of police violence and capitalist exploitation; who is able to take advantage of every event, however small, in order to set forth before all his socialist convictions and his democratic demands, in order to clarify for all and everyone the world-historic significance of the struggle for the emancipation of the proletariat
Homosexual workers do not receive a lower rate of pay, are not forced into the worst jobs, and are not “last hired, first fired.”
Just wrong. You really need to educate yourself a little better. Read some statistics, learn some history, Google around for some news. I’m not going to do more of that for you.
LGBT oppression is not the same as either racism or sexism, of course. But neither are racism and sexism the same. And, of course, the relationship between women’s oppression and the oppression of LGBT folks is pretty obvious. (That’s another way that LGBT oppression relates to exploitation, besides, duh, the intensified exploitation of its direct victims. Again, if you don’t understand this, the Internet is waiting.)
Lastly, it’s funny that you just assumed I’m not Black, without even noting the assumption. I’m not going to tell you whether you’re right, because I try to limit the amount of personal information I put on the Internet. I’m just going to point and laugh.
| October 28, 2009 @ 5:35 am
I’ll happily admit I’d rather have prison guards on strike than doing their jobs.
Well, actually, the ISO supported it for other reasons, obviously. But the guards went in to put down a prisoners uprising in the middle of the strike the ISO supported, FYI. I’m glad to know that you consider the history of your organization outside of the realm of discussion. It’s pretty typical of an ISO member. And typical of the ISO to bury their history.
Also the term currently fashionable among, y’know, actual members of the oppressed group in question.
I don’t know a single homosexual man who likes being called “gay” or “queer.” The terms are etymologically offensive for a number of reasons, most obviously that they imply effeminacy. I work in a “gay” bar and I dare you to come by sometime and call my customers “gay” or “queer.”
Just wrong. You really need to educate yourself a little better. Read some statistics, learn some history, Google around for some news. I’m not going to do more of that for you.
There are gay poor people? Really? Wow! I thought it was a bourgeois perversion confined to the ruling class! You really set me straight, dude!
As far as the rest of it… TL;DR. We could go around in circles on this forever. Suffice it to say, the ISO is always on the wrong side here in the real world, from Korea in the 40s to the Green Revolution today. That’s enough for me and anyone else paying attention. You’ve always been a campus organization and you always will be. You can not and will not ever be a contender for state power. You’re too undisciplined, selectively educated, and populist. But hey, have fun thinking that teachers, social workers, and baristas have enough social power to shut things down.
| October 28, 2009 @ 8:04 pm
I was going to make my next reply my last, also. This discussion has been more heat than light from the title of your post onwards, and while that’s fun for a while, it gets tiring.
I don’t see anything new which requires response in your last reply, except for one point that I want to clarify. The ISO does not think that “we” will be a contender for state power. We are attempting to help build the foundations for a party that could take state power, but we are not such a party, nor even, by ourselves, its nucleus. The US doesn’t have such a party, and in the real world revolutionary parties have never grown by linear accumulation. We are sober enough to recognize our own limitations, and not to posture as the carriers of the one true revolutionary flame, guaranteed someday to inherit the Earth. You should try sobriety sometime; you might not feel as bad-ass, but there’s something refreshing about clarity.
I’ll leave any readers who for some reason have followed this far with a link to a recent essay by Paul LeBlanc: Why I Am Joining the ISO.
| October 29, 2009 @ 9:52 am
Your pathetic excuse for an analysis barely deserves more of a response than a shrug. It’s off the mark on every count and in fact you often state the exact opposite of the truth in many cases. A great example of this is the supposed fear of the word “communist” or of the inability to account for Trotsky’s positions on Poland/USSR ect.
You obviously haven’t ever actually spoken to anyone in the ISO about this nor read any ISO literature. This is how easy it would be to deconstruct what you have said here.
Imperialism as Lenin defined it was specifically related to capitalism as it existed then and exists in most places. The USSR in the Cold War was a different phenomenon. Again…you obviously haven’t actually endeavored to learn anything about this. Why not try to elaborate on exactly what makes the theory of state capitalism unworkable? Why not see if you can’t figure out precisely how different it is from that of “Bureaucratic Collectivism”?
As for offering literature by people like James Cannon and Eugene Debs anyone can go to Haymarketbooks.org and demonstrate yet another of your baseless lies.
As for the sessions at the Socialism conference…again, you’re welcome to watch the available videos on the website to see just what the actual content is but I suspect you won’t because that would be another section you would have to edit out of your what should now be rather dwindled down criticism.
Pointing out the number of people who broke with Marxism during the Cold War (which is enormous and comes from all sides of the debates of the left) does not amount to a political position. You obviously aren’t aware of how many orthodox-Trotskyists did the same. We wouldn’t harp on something like this at all and DO celebrate those heroes of the class struggle who dedicated their whole lives…even if we don’t agree with all their positions.
The only criticism you raised that is worth exploring is about the ratio of college based branches to non-college branches. It would be easy enough for you to look into the ratio of non-working full time students to workers but you won’t. The location of a meeting place on a campus often is the difference between having a meeting or not. Our branch in Denton is based on the university but the majority of our work and periphery is not.
Again, your claim to be well versed and familiar with the ISO is so easily challenged one has to wonder if you ever expected it to be read.
I have to ask…how large of a section of the working class that the ISO ignores read the Black Sun Gazette?
If you had written an open letter expressing well thought out criticisms and proposals it would have been infinitely more worth your time. You glorified livejournal rant has already taken up too much of my day off from work. I have Sw’s to hoc and workers to recruit .
Here’s to hoping you get your shit together,
-Jason N
| January 23, 2010 @ 9:49 am
Have fun selling five copies of your shitty newspaper on your day off!
BTW- I talk to ISO members about this stuff every time I run into them. Assuming that I don’t get chased away by the only person allowed to read the sacred tomes who happens to be there at the moment, I usually get lots of confused stares. Probably because I’m a loon who can’t communicate. Definitely not because your members don’t have a lick of education in Marxist and labor history.
Good job at finding this months after it was written. I keep meaning to write another about how your online “daily paper” mostly consists of reprints from pro-war, pro-Obama rags like the nation.
Promise you’ll come back in a few weeks after you burn out and join Progressive Democrats of America?
| January 23, 2010 @ 12:29 pm